Art, Science & Technology: an interview with Max Cooper
An in-depth conversation before “Yearning for the Infinite” Italian Première show on January 6th, 2020 at Teatro della Fortuna, Fano, presented by Umanesimo Artificiale.
Versione italiana pubblicata su Soundwall
Few have been so successful in interrogating and furthering the intersection between electronic music, visual art, technology and science in the past decade as Max Cooper. Working with collaborators and large-scale institutions like the Barbican, Zaha Hadid Architects and Dolby Atmos, Cooper has developed a mixed-media approach to creation. Whether walk-through light installations, groundbreaking use of 4D sound, or club-ready techno releases, Cooper’s output of electronic exploration makes use of available technology while referencing that which came before it, and does so in a human way.
Filippo Rosati: Thank you Max for agreeing to have this meet-the-artist moment. Let’s start with your background. In 2008 you have completed a PhD (Doctorate Degree) in Computational Biology at the University of Nottingham and worked for a short period as a scientist before dedicating yourself full time to music. What moved you to make the jump towards being a full time artist and how did you integrate your scientific background into your artistic career?
Max Cooper: I have always loved art, just as I have always loved science, especially its aesthetic and emotional value. Nature also fascinates me a lot and for me science is always a reflection of nature. Science is intrinsically beautiful because nature is intrinsically beautiful. A leaf or a tree is not only aesthetically pleasing, but its beauty is also hidden in the laws that govern — for example — the biological process of birth and growth of a tree. I’ve always liked that aspect of science and that’s why I studied theoretical science. I don’t like the part of scientific experiments as much as the beauty of ideas. I think I have always had an artistic approach even when I was a scientist. I have always preferred to play with abstract systems: thinking about the idea, the concept, develop them through programming and see what comes out. In this sense, music is very similar, because one sits in front of an instrument and plays with abstract systems that have different elements that interrelate and must work together in unison.
My scientific background is mostly seen in the visuals.
Visually the contribution of science is very explicit and allows you to represent it faithfully almost 100%, while as regards music it is increasingly difficult to make this transposition. Sometimes I compose music as if I composed the soundtrack of a film, other times I am much more explicit in inserting scientific theories also in the compositional structure of a track. For example in “Penrose Tiling” — an aperiodic structure of tiling that never repeats itself allowing you to create infinite structures — the mathematical idea developed by the mathematician Roger Penrose it already has a very nice visual effect of its own, so I thought “how can I express this idea on a musical level?”. I decided to use several loops of different length, and each loop was intended as a prime number, which in mathematics is a number that divides only by itself and by 1; associating each loop with a prime number means that the loops never overlap — except after an infinite number of switches. It is not an explicit representation of the mathematical idea, but an interpretation of mine; however if you listen carefully, you can feel that the musical structure develops together with the visual structure. “Penrose Tiling” is an example of how audio, video and mathematics are based on the same structure and my way of creating links between art and science.
FR: Let’s talk about your latest project “Yearning for the Infinite” that you will present tonight. How was it born and how did it develop?
MC: “Yearning for the Infinite” was born from a commission from the Barbican Center in London; the brief was about new technologies and how these new technologies influence today’s society, with a focus on the process of accelerating human progress. I wanted to visualize this concept, both from the personal side of the human being who wakes up every morning and tries to pursue his goals, day after day, and from a more macro perspective of the development of civilization, of society, focused on consumption. This tension towards the unattainable, the infinite — precisely — can have positive or negative connotations, and I prefer to see it in a positive way. After all, in life, if you feel you have arrived, there is nothing left and you fall into a depression.
In the way I work, I start by writing stories that start from scientific concepts, then I go on to write the visual story that I communicate to visual artists and then I create music for that story. In audiovisual performances I start from the visual part and then move on to the musical part.
In this project, to try to visualize the infinite, I made use of different elements such as the concept of infinite regression or repetition. For example in the track “Repetition”, looking for various ways in which to visually represent the infinite, together with Kevin McGloughlin (visual artist) we took clips from different cities and we repeated them endlessly; with the same structure I built the music, made of repeating loops.
FR: In this project you have collaborated with several visual artists, one for each track. How was the relationship with the artists?
MC: Once I have written my visual stories, what I would like to express etc … I try to identify the artists who may be able to represent them visually, and which part of the story I could entrust to them. Which is not always just a video maker. For example, for Penrose Tiling I had to look for a mathematician, because it is precisely a mathematical theory. Sometimes I work with neuroscientists, data scientists and researchers in general. Sometimes with traditional film makers. It depends on the concept.
Usually what I do is commissioning a job: I look for them, I contact them, I tell them the story, we define a budget and all the normal iter of a commissioned job. My relationship with the artist depends a lot on his personality: someone is more introverted, he prefers to work alone without talking to anyone and usually if I work with these people it is because I have total confidence in what they do. Other times it is completely the opposite and every single scene is discussed in a continuous email exchange. I adapt my process according to the person with whom I decide to work, because what I am interested in is the quality of the work.
FR: How important is technology in your creative process? Is it technology that influences Max or is Max that leads technology?
MC: Both. I believe that mine is a relationship of mutual collaboration with technology and this relationship depends on computational power.
For music, my creation process is very complex and it is a matter of managing chaos and channeling it towards something interesting. The process has several different stages of development and in each phase I seek the help of the best technology that allows me to do what I would like to do. I like to push myself and technology to the limits of what can be perceived. For example, in a couple of tracks on this latest album there are more than 200 different sound layers. Obviously they are not all perceptible, but it gives me the opportunity to push complexity to the limit.
To try to represent the complexity of sounds and insert more and more information, I sometimes use different techniques, such as binaural panning where sounds seem to come from all over. In fact, very often my music is designed to be listened to with a good stereo system, or with headphones.
The beauty and interesting part of this art is that this kind of composition can only be realized in an electronic music context, it cannot be replicated in any other way. In this sense, I am very interested in new technologies such as artificial intelligence and machine learning, in new and increasingly powerful computational tools that pave the way for different and increasingly complex forms of artistic expression. This also applies in the visual field.
Art is about feelings and emotions, it is not something aseptic. These ideas are like a toolbox that defines the structure and boundaries within which to work, but then within these limits I always try to express emotions and feelings; even if it is electronic music and science, in the end, music must transmit emotions. We live in a very interesting moment for this kind of arts.
FR: I saw your “Emergence” show a couple of years ago and the projections were on a sort of 180° wall. In your latest work “Yearning for the Infinite” you are looking for three-dimensionality with projections on multiple surfaces that surround the audience. Why do you think the element of immersion is fundamental in your shows and what kind of experience would you like the audience to have during your shows?
MC: This relates to the sound spatialisation I was talking about earlier. I like to wrap the viewer within a multisensory performance. I prefer when the audience have a more intimate, personal experience; this is why — compared to a festival in which you are in the midst of an immense crowd and perhaps far from the console or from the visuals — I prefer more intimate situations in which the performance develops around the spectator who is at the center. For example, in today’s show there will also be projections on the sides; when the situation permits, I like to project also on the ceiling or on the floor. I did a couple of 360° dome shows, or 3D shows with surround system. As for what I would like the viewer to perceive instead, it is a set of things, since in my performances I always express a diversity of emotions and sensations, there is not one in particular. Perhaps the only thing I always look for is a very intense experience.
I have a curious anecdote about this. I invited my parents to the show premiere at the Barbican Center. My father’s new wife, who had never been to similar electronic music performances, spent most of the first part with the scarf around her eyes and ears. In the end she opened up and she liked it, but it was clear that at the beginning it was very difficult. It was too strong, a too intense experience for her.
FR: In your latest albums, starting with Emergence, each track is presented through a video clip and explained on your website in great detail: from the concept, to the creative process, to the scientific theory behind it. This really fascinates me. Why is sharing knowledge so important to you?
MC: Because I love science, nature, philosophy and I find them so beautiful that I believe they must be shared. The aspect of the idea and concept has the same value for me as music and visuals. I spend a lot of time researching, reading and formulating the concept. The challenge is always to try to communicate more and more and better the concepts in my works. Sometimes I hold lectures in which I present the video, what is behind it, and I love these moments because they allow me to talk about what I like. I do it hoping to make my audience increasingly interested in science, which very often — especially when it is explained to us at school — is very boring.
FR: Before concluding, a note of curiosity since Renick Bell will be our guest in March for an artistic residence: why did you choose a (algorithmic) work by Renick Bell as the album cover of “Yearning for the Infinite”?
MC: I chose that Renick’s work because I believe it fully identifies the idea of the album. It represents a branching structure that grows, grows, grows and tends to infinity. But it also resembles a face seen in profile, which therefore seems to be aiming for infinity. Both concepts perfectly represent the spirit of the project.
FR: Last question, and perhaps the most philosophical one. “Yearning for the Infinite” was born from a commission from the Barbican Center within the annual “Life Rewired” project which intends to explore what it means to be human in a world where technology changes everything. The same questions are at the core of Umanesimo Artificiale, so — to conclude — I would like to ask you: what does it mean to be human for you and what role do you think men have in a world dominated by increasingly intelligent technologies?
MC: The concept of post-humanism is very complex. What I can say is that even if I make intense use of technology and scientific theories, music and art always remain a way of expressing emotions, feelings, qualia (from Wikipedia: qualia are, in the philosophy of mind, the qualitative aspects of conscious experiences. Each conscious experience has a qualitative sensation different from another).
FR: A point machines will never reach?
MC: Maybe they could get there, but every living thing has its qualia. What each of us perceives is defined by our personal sensory experiences, by how our brain works, in what environment we grew up; the limitations of our body define who we are. I believe a machine will never come to have this type of experience and that is what sets us apart from a machine. Most of the music and art is still linked to these elements: we don’t go to a concert or a museum just for the work itself, but we want to reflect on the human being behind the work, what lives they lived, what ideas they had, what problems they encountered. When you listen to the music of your favorite band, you not only listen to the sound waves, but also everything the band represents. In this, the fact that we humans want to relate to other humans is what differentiates us from a machine. Technology will allow us to do more and better things, but I believe there is still room for us, conscious humans, in this world.
FR: Definitely! Thank you Max. It has been a pleasure!
MC: Thank you guys.
